'Flight' Takes On Questions Of Accountability
Originally published on Thu November 29, 2012 3:21 pm
Director, producer and screenwriter Robert Zemeckis is known for the Back to the Future films — which marked his arrival onto the Hollywood scene in the mid-1980s — as well as Who Framed Roger Rabbit and Forrest Gump. His latest film, Flight, stars Denzel Washington as William "Whip" Whitaker, a heroic airline pilot with a dark secret.
Early in the film, the plane Whitaker is piloting takes a terrifying plunge after a mechanical malfunction. Whitaker — in a daring maneuver that others are unable to later re-create — manages to flip the plane over, fly it upside down and successfully avert a full-blown disaster. He eventually crash-lands the plane while saving scores of lives.
This dramatic action sequence may be the scene-setter, but the movie subsequently becomes a character drama. Upon waking in the hospital, Whitaker learns that toxicology reports were taken while he was unconscious — and they've revealed that he had alcohol and cocaine in his system when the airplane malfunctioned. He then faces charges and a hearing from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).
And he has to face himself: Will he hold himself accountable?
"Basically what he and I spoke about was the character's level of denial," Zemeckis says about working with Washington. "That's what you're ultimately seeing in this performance, and that's what I think he did so brilliantly in his portrayal."
Zemeckis, whose films include the motion-capture animated movies A Christmas Carol, Beowulf and The Polar Express, is known for his use of new technologies. That said, he recognizes the pitfalls of jumping to embrace them too quickly.
"[Y]ou can go back and see how ... in the final years of the silent cinema, where the art of cinema storytelling was so magnificent, and then when they invented the microphone and sound, everything got really static," he says. "And it all had to be reinvented again. ... So what we do is we overuse [technologies] and call attention to them because they're just so much fun to have. And then ... we learn how to use them in the way that all tools of cinema should be used, which is to make them invisible."
On how Washington prepared for his role
"He had his own guide of what he was going to do, and he never really was specific with me about it. But he kind of gave me a sense of where he was going to be ... performing, like he's like really drunk, or he's just-got-a-sort-of-a-slight-buzz-on kind of a thing. One thing he did tell me that he did do, though, is he watched a lot of YouTube videos of drunks ... I guess you can go online and just watch drunks, and I don't think they know if they're being videotaped. But he would come to me and say, 'You know, I watched this one where this guy was trying to put his shoe on, and he was working on this for like, you know, 10 minutes to get this shoe on, and he was out there on the street, and he couldn't get his foot in his shoe.'"
On the subtext of the script
"I think that's one of the places where the film works on another level is: How much, as a society, do we allow this kind of reckless behavior ... this sort of irresponsible behavior? ... [E]verybody's got an agenda, you know. It's very fascinating in the movie. The NTSB has an agenda, the pilots' union has an agenda, the airline owner has an agenda. Everybody's got an agenda, and no one's actually ever, you know, thinking about, 'Well, what would actually be good for this human — or the people who perished on the airplane?' "
On learning that such a thing as film school exists
"I was watching the Johnny Carson show, and his guest that night was Jerry Lewis, and I remember Johnny saying, 'So, Jerry, I understand you're teaching school,' and Jerry said, 'That's right. I'm teaching cinema at the USC School of Cinema.' And [when] I heard 'School of Cinema,' I never thought anything like that even existed. ... I remember literally jumping up to my feet in the living room and thinking, 'My God, a school to learn how to make movies!' And the next day I went to the library and found the catalog for USC, and I opened it up to their cinema department. And right there on the front page was a photograph of Alfred Hitchcock standing in front of his class at a lectern, and I thought, 'My god, this does exist!' And so I went on this quest to get into the USC film school."
On making Roger Rabbit seem like a living, breathing cartoon rabbit
"Charlie Fleischer was the voice of Roger Rabbit, and he was on the set every day, and he demanded a costume. So the wardrobe department actually made a Roger Rabbit costume for him so that he could go into wardrobe every morning. And he had the red trousers and a big bow tie and he had that on. ... I had these rubber dolls made to scale of the cartoon characters, and I would place them in the set and we would rehearse the scene ... I would walk around holding the rabbit by its ears, bouncing it around the set, and Bob [Hoskins] would find places in the set where I would move the rabbit. ... [H]e would then move his eyes to those areas, and remember where they were, and then he would focus them on [that] point in space — because he couldn't look at the wall, or a target out of frame, because then the camera would see that he [was] looking through the cartoon character. It would destroy the illusion."
TERRY GROSS, HOST:
This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The new film "Flight" stars Denzel Washington as an airline pilot with substance abuse problems who performs brilliantly in a mid-air emergency to save scores of airline passengers. Six people die in the plane's crash landing, and afterward, the pilot struggles with his addiction and the uncertainty of whether he'll be held accountable for his drinking and drug abuse and blamed for the crash as well as credited with the heroic landing.
"Flight" was directed by our guest, Robert Zemeckis. His films include "Romancing the Stone," three "Back to the Future" movies, "Forrest Gump," "Contact" and "Castaway." He also directed the innovative cartoon and live action movie "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" and has recently worked with cutting edge motion capture technology in the films "The Polar Express" and "Beowulf."
Zemeckis spoke with FRESH AIR contributor Dave Davies. They began with a clip from "Flight" in which the pilot and his copilot are fighting to regain control of their plane as it plunges toward the ground.
(SOUNDBITE OF MOVIE, "FLIGHT")
DENZEL WASHINGTON: (as Whip) This is South Jet 227. We're in an uncontrolled dive and we've got a jammed stabilizer or something.
BRIAN GERAGHTY: (as Ken) Oh, lord. We're going on 7,000. I see nothing but (unintelligible).
WASHINGTON: (as Whip) When I say I want you to retract the flaps, retract the gear, trim us nose down. OK?
GERAGHTY: (as Ken) Turn down? What are you going to do?
WASHINGTON: (as Whip) When I tell you, I want you to push these forward full throttle. Can you do that?
GERAGHTY: (as Ken) Yeah.
WASHINGTON: (as Whip) OK. When I tell you.
GERAGHTY: (as Ken) Wait, wait, sir. What are we doing? Why would I turn down?
WASHINGTON: (as Whip) We're going to roll it. OK?
GERAGHTY: (as Ken) What? What do you mean, roll it?
WASHINGTON: (as Whip) We've got to do something to stop this dive. Here we go. I've got control.
GERAGHTY: (as Ken) Oh, lord!
WASHINGTON: (as Whip) All right. Now flaps.
GERAGHTY: (as Ken) Flaps.
WASHINGTON: (as Whip) Speed brakes.
GERAGHTY: (as Ken) Speed brakes. Oh!
WASHINGTON: (as Whip) Forward power.
DAVE DAVIES, HOST:
Well, Robert Zemeckis, welcome to FRESH AIR. You know, I think the thought of air crashes holds a special terror for everybody who's been in an airplane, which is most of us these days. You are a pilot yourself. Have you ever been in a dicey situation where you weren't sure you were going to make it back?
ROBERT ZEMECKIS: Well, you know, I never thought of that. Yeah, I am a pilot. I had an emergency situation on takeoff once where I lost engine power on takeoff, which is not a good thing because you're very close to the ground. You know, I was fortunate enough to keep the engine running. I was able to make a shallow turn and land on the same runway I took off on.
But I would not want to be in those situations, that's for sure. But, you know, when a situation like that happens to you as a pilot, you really don't think about consequences. You just start thinking about all the things that you have to do. Your training, if you will.
DAVIES: Can you think of a way that your experience as a pilot helped you to recreate this terrifying situation?
ZEMECKIS: Well, I think that really the main thing was jargon in the way that the actors spoke on the radio. You know, for anyone who's ever taken a flying lesson, you know that the most difficult thing to learn is how to talk on the radio. And, you know, that was what I obviously had a lot of hours of experience. And I had an ear for whether they were saying things right or not.
And I think that that's probably what my, you know, training as a pilot helped the film with the most.
DAVIES: What's difficult about talking on the radio in the air?
ZEMECKIS: Well, you're speaking jargon so you don't really know - you don't really - it's sort of like speaking in another language. So when you're learning how to fly, not only do you have to fly the airplane and you're thinking about all those things and, you know, the tower, the controller will come on the radio and ask you these questions.
And you have to kind of remember, oh, you know, how to respond and what order you're supposed to respond to and all these different things. And when you're an actor, you know, you don't really - you can't really visualize what it is that you're saying. And so when you're talking about speed brakes or throwing flaps out or dumping the gear and all that sort of thing, you know, you have to be put into it, kind of, like a mini-ground school to understand.
Try to visualize what it is you're asking your copilot to do.
DAVIES: There's this kind of calm that pilots seem to have, or at least that I imagine them having. You know, when I read Tom Wolfe's book "The Right Stuff" about military pilots, never a moment's panic. You're just always focused on the task at hand.
ZEMECKIS: Yeah. And what it is that I think that you're taught to do is to, you know, just work the problem. And I think when situations happen that are irregular, what does happen is that your training sort of just automatically kicks in and you start to go through those checklists and start doing all those things that you've been, you know, going over and over in your head. And you just start to go into that mode.
DAVIES: Did you or Denzel Washington listen to, you know, cockpit recordings of, you know, of pilots that were in crises and jams up in the air?
ZEMECKIS: You know, I don't know if Denzel did but I certainly did because I know that you can go online and hear any of the sort of what they call the black box recordings from airline incidents. And you can actually go online, I guess, and listen to, you know, pilots talking to controllers live, all day long.
But, yes, I listened to some incidents in the cockpit data recorders just to get a sense of what the sort of the tone of the pilot's voice would be. Some of them were pretty calm but then some of them, you know, you could hear the panic in their voice, that's for sure.
DAVIES: The effects on this are pretty amazing. I mean, you completely buy that this is happening and you see it from many angles. And you did this on a relatively small budget for this kind of thing at, what, $31 million bucks?
ZEMECKIS: Yeah. It was $31 million.
DAVIES: I'm sure there's a long complicated answer here but how do you make it so real?
ZEMECKIS: Well, you know, the short answer is I really pay a lot of attention to keeping the point of view of all this action coming from the place of character, and keeping the audience with the main character. So we've set up basically these four people, these two flight attendants and the pilot and the copilot. And we see this incident, basically, from their point of view and, you know, not try to start introducing panicking passengers and that sort of thing and keep them basically as atmosphere.
And keep the drama with the main characters.
DAVIES: Now, it's not a spoiler to note that the pilot, Denzel Washington, whose name is Whip Whitaker, has problems. I mean, he's a substance abuser. He drinks alcohol and takes other drugs. We see this in the opening scene and that sets up the story. I thought we'd listen to a clip here, where this is after the crash and six people died - two crew members and four passengers.
But everybody else survived, which was, you know, due to this captain's remarkable maneuver in the air to bring the plane down. And this is a meeting where he's sitting down at a restaurant and, kind of, discovering what a serious situation he might be in. He's meeting with an old friend, a union representative and an old navy buddy who'd played by Bruce Greenwood and he has brought an attorney who is played by Don Cheadle. And they're talking about what these guys are going to be facing.
We'll hear Denzel Washington, the pilot, speaking first.
(SOUNDBITE OF MOVIE, "FLIGHT")
WASHINGTON: (as Whip) So why do we need a lawyer from Chicago?
BRUCE GREENWOOD: (as Charlie) He specializes in criminal negligence.
WASHINGTON: (as Whip) Criminal negligence?
GREENWOOD: (as Charlie) Mm-hmm.
DON CHEADLE: (as Hugh Lang) Death demands responsibility. Six dead on that plane. Someone has to pay.
WASHINGTON: (as Whip) I flew the plane inverted. That means upside down. You have any idea what that's like?
CHEADLE: (as Hugh Lang) I do. I heard the black box recordings last night.
WASHINGTON: (as Whip) Oh, you heard the - oh, are you a pilot?
CHEADLE: (as Hugh Lang) No, I'm not.
WASHINGTON: (as Whip) Then you don't know what you're talking about. All right. Let's cut to the chase. What - what - just tell me what it is I need to know, Charlie.
CHEADLE: (as Hugh Lang) The NTSB go team also collects blood, hair, and skin samples. And initial report shows that you had alcohol in your system.
WASHINGTON: (as Whip) Hmm.
GREENWOOD: (as Charlie) So that was the...
WASHINGTON: (as Whip) Doesn't mean anything. I had a couple of beers the night before the flight.
CHEADLE: (as Hugh Lang) This toxicology report states that you were drunk, and if it is proven that your intoxication was the cause of the death of the four passengers now we're going to look at four counts of manslaughter. That could be life in prison.
DAVIES: And that's Don Cheadle speaking with Denzel Washington and Bruce Greenwood in the film "Flight," directed by our guest, Robert Zemeckis. How did Denzel Washington prepare for that role? Or how did you help him?
ZEMECKIS: Well, you know, Denzel has - he's very, very focused and he's very prepared, and the only thing that we spoke about as far as levels of intoxication were, you know, he kind of had his own guide of what he was going to do and he never really was specific, you know, with me about it.
But he kind of gave me a sense of where he was going to be, like, you know, performing like when he's really, really drunk or he's just got sort a slight buzz on kind of a thing. One thing he did tell me that he did do, though, is he watched a lot of YouTube videos of drunks. And I guess you can go online and just watch drunks.
ZEMECKIS: And I don't think they know that they're being videotaped. But he would come to me and say, you know, I watched this one where this guy was trying to put his shoe on and he was working on this for like, you know, 10 minutes. He was out there on the street and he couldn't get his foot in his shoe. And so he was - you know, he was looking at the physicality of what it is he was going to do.
But I think basically what he and I spoke about were the characters' level of denial. That's what I think you're ultimately seeing in this performance and that's what I think he did so brilliantly in his portrayal.
DAVIES: You know, one of the most dramatic moments in this film, and this is really about direction, I mean your work, is in a hotel room and it's of a hand taking a single serving size bottle of vodka from the top of a minibar. Now, I don't know whether you want to talk about this. I don't want to give away anything critical.
DAVIES: But you want to talk about making that moment so powerful?
ZEMECKIS: Well, that's what I love about this art form. It's cinema, and I just love the idea that you can take an inanimate object like a single service, you know, vodka bottle and make it into a character. I was channeling Hitchcock, I guess. You know, when I was doing that scene I was thinking, OK, how can I make this suspenseful?
It's just this guy and a minibar in a hotel room. And thinking about that scene and having him have to approach the refrigerator and open the refrigerator. So I designed the refrigerator so we have actual lights inside the walls of the refrigerator so that it would glow like a jewel box with all the alcohol in there.
DAVIES: Now, the question was, would he take - the question was, would he take a drink or not. And so...
ZEMECKIS: Would he take a drink? That's what the audience was - you didn't know if he was going to do it or not and that was the setup. And so, you know, and then I - you know, and then I - I shot it at different frame rates and had the camera kind of, like, ease into that bottle at the end. And yeah, I just sort of tried to make it as cinematic and as suspenseful as I possibly could.
DAVIES: Yeah. And it's like you almost jump in your seat because he's not going to drink and then the bottle disappears.
DAVIES: In a big swoosh.
DAVIES: People write about the economics of the business to some extent in these things. I read that this was a relatively inexpensive film, $31 million, that you and Denzel Washington both were so committed that you waived your fees.
DAVIES: I don't know if this is the kind of thing you like to talk about in interviews.
DAVIES: But in other words, the point was you were willing to kind of take whatever you got on the back end just to get it made.
DAVIES: And I read that you said it was great to be making an inexpensive movie. Why?
ZEMECKIS: Yes. Yes. Well, you know, because what's wonderful about making an inexpensive movie is you can try things. And when I started making this film I realized that what I had been - you know, it's great when you've got a large budget and you have this huge army to realize your vision. You know, you've got every piece of equipment that you can possibly imagine on the truck and you can design and have sets built that are very elaborate and visual effects and that sort of thing.
That's all wonderful. But you realize that that's a huge responsibility. So you have to be very cautious in everything that you do. So you can't take any risks because, you know, there's too much money involved. So you have to play it very, very close to the vest. And I think that by having what I'll call a responsible budget, you can try things.
Because the worst thing that's going to happen is the moment may not work and it's - you know, the whole film isn't going to live or die on that moment. And if you went down the road and you made a film that absolutely no one in the world had any interest in seeing, then it wasn't a complete horrible disaster that was going to maybe, you know, bankrupt an entire studio. It was liberating.
DAVIES: We're speaking with Robert Zemeckis. He directed the new film "Flight," starring Denzel Washington. We'll talk more after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
DAVIES: If you're just joining us, our guest is Robert Zemeckis. He's directed many films, including "Forrest Gump" and "Castaway." His newest is "Flight" starring Denzel Washington. You know, the film is about, you know, somebody - an alcoholic trying to come to terms with his life, but you know, these are such big events that form the backdrop for it. It made me think about the idea of accountability.
You know, with so much that happens in our society, people have lawyers and they stay on message and they have ways of avoiding responsibility. I mean, we had a financial crisis and it's nobody's fault, you know. And I wondered if in some respects one of the things that's going on here is seeking accountability for a public disaster.
ZEMECKIS: Yeah. Or at least personal accountability, you know, and being responsible for your own actions. I mean I think you're absolutely right about that. I thought one of the things that was fascinating and was really under the subtext of what John wrote there is how the system designs ways for us to get off.
I mean they laid it out for him. When you see the film you'll see what I'm talking about. And you know - and his choice was whether he was going to be personally accountable for his actions or not. And you know, I think that is one of the places where the film works on another level, which is how much as a society do we allow this kind of reckless behavior, you know, this sort of irresponsible behavior. And everybody's got an agenda. You know, I mean it's very fascinating. You know, in the movie the NTSB has an agenda. The pilots union has an agenda. The airline owner has an agenda. Everybody's got an agenda and no one's actually ever, you know, thinking about, well, what actually would be good for this human, you know, or the people who perished on the airplane. So I think it's fascinating in that regard.
DAVIES: Yeah. Getting to the truth of what really happened as opposed to - right.
ZEMECKIS: Right. Exactly. Or like you said, you know, spreading out all the accountability so at the end of the day no one's really accountable. You know, that's sort of how the system is designed these days.
DAVIES: You grew up on the south side of Chicago in a working class family, right?
ZEMECKIS: That's correct. Yup.
DAVIES: How'd you get interested in movies?
ZEMECKIS: Well, I watched a lot of television and, you know, in those days that was what was mostly on television, were a lot of movies. But I also went to the movies but, you know, usually only on Tuesday night where my mom could get in for free. And they were always triple features. And you know, in my neighborhood they were third run movie houses so I really never saw anything that wasn't a scratched print or anything like that.
But I was always fascinated, I guess, by the illusion part of it and how do they do these things and how did they do things? And I loved the action. I loved the visual effects. And then something happened. When I was in high school I started to understand the emotional power of movies, and that's when I realized that there was some other guiding hand in here besides just the actors and the action, that there was somebody actually putting this whole thing together. And I started to research and understand what a director did and I guess that's when I sort of just fell in love with the art form.
DAVIES: Now, what I read - sometimes these stories get exaggerated - I read that you heard on the Johnny Carson show that there was such a thing as film school and decided to apply?
ZEMECKIS: That's true. That's true. That's very true. Well, right. Because I had no - I mean the story is, I was watching the Johnny Carson show and his guest that night was Jerry Lewis. And I remember Johnny saying, So Jerry, I understand you're teaching school. And Jerry said that's right. I'm teaching cinema at the USC School of Cinema.
And I heard School of Cinema. I never thought anything like that even existed. And I remember, you know, literally jumping up to my feet in the living room and thinking, my god, a school to learn how to make movies. And the next day I went to the library and found the catalogue for USC and I opened it up to their cinema department and right there on the front page was a photograph of Alfred Hitchcock standing in front of his class at a lectern.
And I thought, my god, this does exist. And so then I went on this kind of quest to get into the USC film school, which I ultimately was fortunate enough to do.
DAVIES: Was it hard to get in?
ZEMECKIS: Well, it was very hard to get in. You know, it was hard. I mean, you know, USC is a very, very, very, very, you know, academically-driven school. You have to have, like, a 5.0 grade point average to get in. It always was that way. And I was in a strange situation because you also had to submit work to the film school.
So I had been making these small films and I sent a portfolio of my work to the film school and I got this letter that accepted me into the film school, but I wasn't accepted into the university because my grades weren't good enough. So - and in an impassioned phone call I got on the phone with my evaluator and promised that I would go to summer school and I'd get the grades up and I would do everything I needed to do.
And I think I - you know, and I think she heard all the sort of passion in my voice and she said, oh, OK. I'll let you in. I'll accept you.
GROSS: Robert Zemeckis will continue his conversation with FRESH AIR contributor Dave Davies in the second half of the show. Zemeckis directed the new film "Flight," starring Denzel Washington. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
GROSS: It's hard to imagine "Back to the Future" without Michael J. Fox, but a different actor starred in the first five weeks of shooting. Coming up, more with the film's director, Robert Zemeckis, who also made the new film "Flight." And he'll tell us about making "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?" - which blended live action and animation. Also, Ed Ward reviews a new collection of electric blues.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview FRESH AIR contributor Dave Davies recorded with director Robert Zemeckis, who made the new movie "Flight," starring Denzel Washington. Zemeckis also directed "Back to the Future" and its two sequels, "Who Framed Roger Rabbit," "Forrest Gump," "Contact" and "The Polar Express."
DAVIES: Now, you were in early collaborator with Steven Spielberg. How did you get his attention, get into his orbit?
ZEMECKIS: Well, I was very fortunate to be riding on the sort of - in the slipstream of these young guys who were coming out of film school were the sort of new wave in Hollywood. It was, like, George Lucas and Francis Coppola and John Milius and Steven Spielberg. And, you know, and the New York contingent of that was Martin Scorsese and Brian de Palma.
And I met Steven at the USC Film School. He came down with one of his early films, "Sugarland Express," and I struck up a conversation with him and I said, hey, would you like to see a student film I made? And he said sure. And I, you know, I called him at his office, and he set up a screening in a screening room at Universal and he saw my film I made, and he thought it was really good and we kept in touch.
And then my partner and I, my writing partner, Bob Gale, we wrote a screenplay which became "1941," which actually was developed by John Milius, who thought it was an outrageous idea and got us the money to develop it, and he was good friends with Steven. So he gave the screenplay to Steven. Steven read it, loved it and said he wanted to do it. And so then, all of a sudden, Bob Gale and myself were on the set of "Close Encounters" working on his next screenplay with him. And so that's how our relationship sort of started, is all through the work.
DAVIES: You made a couple of early films, "I Want to Hold Your Hand," which is about some young women trying to get into see the Beatles, and "Used Cars," which were critical, but not commercial successes. And the big breakout film, I guess, for you was "Back to the Future," which you wrote with your friend Bob Gale. This is an interesting - you know, it's a fun film, because it's about time travel, but it's really about these relationships, right, about this guy going and meeting his parents when they were teenagers.
ZEMECKIS: Right. Yeah. The initial germ of the idea was never about the science fiction of it. Bob and I were kicking around the idea, and Bob said one day: I wonder if I would have been my father's friend if I were in high school with him? And we were thinking about our relationships with our fathers, and he said that. And he said, yeah, and he started to think, yeah. Wouldn't it be interesting if a teenage kid went back in time and met his parents as teenagers? And that was the germ of the idea.
DAVIES: I read that studios were nervous about it, because it was a little too soft for some studios that were doing, you know, a lot of racy stuff - except for Disney, who thought it was a little too hardcore because a guy kisses his mom.
ZEMECKIS: Right. They were worried about the oedipal implications. Yeah, that's true. I mean, I have a - you know, a very, very, very wonderful file of rejection letters from every studio passing on "Back to the Future." I kept them all.
DAVIES: And the amazing thing is you get it funded, and you should five weeks with Eric Stoltz in the lead role, right, and then had to reverse course. What happened?
ZEMECKIS: Well, it was a, you know, it's being an inexperienced director. Eric is a magnificent actor, but the comedy sensibilities of what I was doing and his sensibility as an actor just weren't working. He wasn't understanding what - where the humor was that I was seeing in the piece.
Now, you know, it's my responsibility, because I cast Eric, and I didn't do it for the right reasons, if you know what I - and I'm about to explain what that is. And that is, is that I was ordered by the studio to start the movie on a specific day, and if I - and basically, I was told if you don't start it on this day, we're not going to make the movie, because we want it out for the summer.
And so I learned a very, very hard lesson, which is, you know, don't ever do anything for the wrong reasons. And so the actor I really wanted was Michael J. Fox, but he wasn't available and I was given this ultimatum to start - because he was doing his TV show - to start on this day. So I thought, OK, I can make this movie work with Eric.
And it wasn't Eric - you know, it had nothing to do with Eric's ability, but I wasn't seeing the movie working. And so I assembled all the film that I had and I ran it for Steven and I said, you know, I don't think this is working. And he said, you're right. It's not working. And I said, well, what are we going to do? And so we went to the studio and said we want to reshoot. And they thought that I was - the head of the studio at the time literally said to me, sir, he said, you are insane. He said you are insane. And I guess I just sort of shrugged.
ZEMECKIS: But, you know, they backed my decision and allowed me to go and reshoot those five weeks and cast Michael J. And he worked literally 24 hours a day, working all day on his TV series, and we shot everything with him at night, And he never slept, and we went back and reshot all those weeks of shooting.
DAVIES: We're speaking with Robert Zemeckis. He directed the new film "Flight," starring Denzel Washington.
We'll talk more after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
DAVIES: If you're just joining us, our guest is Robert Zemeckis. He's directed the new film "Flight," starring Denzel Washington.
We can't talk about all of your films, or we'd be here all day. But I did want to bring up this other memory from one that's a memorable film. And rather than introduce it, let's just play it. Let's us hear this moment.
(SOUNDBITE OF MOVIE, "WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT")
MAE QUESTEL: (as Betty Boop) Cigars? Cigarettes? Eddie Valiant.
BOB HOSKINS: (as Eddie Valiant) Betty?
QUESTEL: (as Betty Boop) Long time, no see.
HOSKINS: (as Eddie Valiant) What are you doing here?
QUESTEL: (as Betty Boop) Work's been kinda slow since cartoons went to color. But I still got it, Eddie. Boop-boop-be-doop-boop.
HOSKINS: (as Eddie Valiant) Yeah. You still got it.
DAVIES: Bring back a memory?
ZEMECKIS: Yeah. Yeah. That's Betty Boop, you know, in glorious black and white.
DAVIES: That, of course, is from "Who Framed Roger Rabbit." Mae Questel played Betty Boop, and the detective, Eddie Valiant, is played by Bob Hoskins. I mean, this was a really remarkable film and, you know, a lot of people remember it, I bet, as being amazing. And, probably, it's long enough ago that they don't remember it so well.
I mean, this is where we have these cartoon characters, who are toons, people who are - these creatures in 1947 Los Angeles, kind of live in a seedy part of town, and interact in live-action with real characters. And it would've been just a gag if there weren't, like, a really interesting story and characters here. And this was the first time anybody had done this. And I know there's probably a long, complicated answer to this, too, but how did you make it look so real in 1988?
ZEMECKIS: Well, there were two artists, I guess, and one rule that we violated. One, I had a magnificent director of animation, Richard Williams, who was a very rebellious, expatriate Canadian who lived in London, and he was just a great animator. And Ken Rolston, who was the effects supervisor at ILM. And what Ken Rolston was able to do is he was able to come up and devise a way to put, like, this three-dimensional painting on each cell of animation that would match the lighting that we did in the set to give the cartoon characters the same sort of feel of the actual practical lighting that were on the human characters.
And then Richard Williams was, you know, I said to him, I said, well, you know, what's never been done in these animation-live action movies is that they never move the camera. I mean, if you look at the scenes in "Mary Poppins" or in "Pete's Dragon" or any of those, they always lock the camera off. And he said yeah, well, that's how do - you know, we don't, you know, it would be so difficult to draw the different changes of perspective. And would they feel like they're floating? And all these rules about you can never move the camera. And he said, but let's do it anyway. Let's move the camera.
And so, you know, all of these scenes with the cartoon characters, I just shot the movie like I would any live-action movie. And the animators actually found that it worked better by having the camera moving, that they were able to actually give more life to the characters - the cartoon characters, and have them feel like they're more integrated into the actual three - two-dimensional set. So it was that. It was like doing something that no one had ever done before, which gives it that sort of ability to suspend your disbelief about this whole kind of weird thing that you're looking at.
DAVIES: So you'd shoot the live-action scenes first.
DAVIES: And if he had a cartoon that would later be throwing something in the real world, like a plate or a cup, he'd have to figure out a way to make the plate or cup move.
DAVIES: Then later, the animators come back in and fill in the animation. How long did it take to do all this?
ZEMECKIS: Well, it took a really long time.
ZEMECKIS: No, it was a long shooting schedule. It was probably over 100 days that we shot. But that's what we - you know, we had an army of puppeteers who would puppeteer anything physical that a cartoon character was holding - whether if it was a gun or a mallet or anything like that they were - and they would be articulating that. And then we would have to shoot the set empty, with just this gun floating around on wires. And then, you know, Bob Hoskins would have to find what I was - you know, we would find an eye-line for him to be talking to the rabbit. And then he would have to perform.
But we had the voice performers for the cartoon characters off-camera, on the set. So they were actually doing the scene with another actor's voice in real time. So that was also a help.
ZEMECKIS: Then later, we would go back and animate the - back the animation into the live-action - we called it a background plate.
DAVIES: But Bob Hoskins had to imagine who he was talking to. There was - it was a voice, but he had to just, what, hallucinate a rabbit?
ZEMECKIS: Right. Well, Charlie Fleischer was the voice of Roger Rabbit, and he was on the set every day, and he demanded a costume. So we dressed him up as - so the wardrobe department actually made a Roger Rabbit costume for him so that he could go into it with wardrobe every morning. And he had the red trousers and a big bow tie, and he had that on.
And then I had these rubber dolls made to scale of the cartoon characters, and then I would place them in the set, and we would rehearse the scene. And I would walk around holding the rabbit by its ears, bouncing it around the set. And Bob would find places in the set where I would move the rabbit. He would then move his eyes to those areas, and remember where they were, and then he would focus them on a point in space, because he couldn't look at the wall, or a target out of frame, because then the camera would see that he would be looking through the cartoon character, and it would destroy the illusion.
So it was a lot of work, and - but the secret to the blend between animation and live action working was the performances of the live-action characters. They're the one that make the illusion work. That's why it worked so much, so well in this movie, as opposed to, say, watching a Frosted Flakes commercial with Tony the Tiger and some kid actors. And you kind of look at it and go, OK, I get the gimmick, but it doesn't really look true.
DAVIES: You've always been interested in changing movie technology. I mean, you did a lot of stuff with motion capture, "Polar Express," "Beowulf." Are you a gadget guy, or are you just - I don't know. Do these things bring things you want to explore and play with?
ZEMECKIS: I'm not a gadget guy, like, I don't have gadgets. I like - I love the illusion of cinema and I like the spectacle of cinema, which I think is what movies are supposed to do. And I like having the newest tools at my disposal. You know, I love presenting to the company, OK, how can we do this? How can we do this in a way that it hasn't been done before? I like the challenge of that.
So, you know, I believe that cinema, that movies have always been a technical art form. And I think that it's - my favorite quote is the one from Francois Truffaut, where he said a really, really good movie is the perfect blend of truth and spectacle. So I think you do both, and that's what makes movies entertaining, is you give the audience a way to look at something or see something that they've never seen before. And that's where the illusion and the special effects and all the technology come in. And then you give them, you know, a story that's got some human truth. And when you can blend them together, that's a very entertaining movie.
DAVIES: Do you think digital technology has sort of fundamentally changed moviemaking, I mean, even in films that really don't involve special effects?
ZEMECKIS: Oh, yeah. But that's because every new - everything always did, from day one. I mean, you know, you can go back and see how, you know, we - they - in the final years of the silent cinema, where the art of cinema, of storytelling was so magnificent. And then when they invented the microphone and sound, everything got really static, and it all had to be reinvented again, and the same when color came in. And when the invented the steady cam, every movie had a chase up and down a staircase, you know.
So what we do with these technologies is we overuse them and we call attention to them, because they're just so much fun to have. And then we learn how to use them in the way that all tools of cinema should be used, which is to make them invisible. So now I don't think you can even tell when a director is using a steady cam. If he's really good at his job, the camera movement won't call attention to itself.
So, yeah, I think that, you know, some of the digital stuff that we're doing now, especially in editing, I find that we're - there's editing for what I call no reason. You know, we just edit to edit. And I think we do that in films now because we can. But we'll get that out of our system and, you know, and then something else will be there that'll be the new technology of the month.
DAVIES: "Forrest Gump" was such an amazing project for you. You won the Academy Award for Best Director, right?
DAVIES: It sort of became this huge American cultural influence. What was it like to experience that?
ZEMECKIS: Well, you know, it's great. It's definitely something to be in that whirlwind situation where you - and making the most successful movie of the year, and then you also win Academy Awards afterwards. It's certainly a life-changing thing. But, you know, it's like, you know, it's a very heady experience, in a strange way.
It's quite a bit nerve-racking, because, you know, you end up having to be in that situation where you're thinking - you know, you start to get insecure about thinking if you can ever top any of this. You know, what are you going to do next? Is everything going to just be, you know, a letdown after you have a success as tremendous as the one we had on "Forrest Gump"?
DAVIES: You know, I'm always interested with actors and directors if they can tell they've got something remarkable as they're making the film. Did you feel that "Forrest Gump" was going to be anything like what it was?
ZEMECKIS: I always get a sense that the movie's going to work as a movie. No one can predict success. But, yeah, halfway through, I started to assemble - I started to really feel that. I know that the cast is running on all cylinders, and I start to assemble the footage and I start to say, OK, these scenes are working. And I ask my crew this a lot, though, because I say: Do you guys know? And they say, we never know.
I said, really? And they go, yeah, we never know if anything's going to work or not, you know. And I said, well, that's interesting. But, yeah, I get a sense that the movie's going to work. And what I mean by that, it's going to be compelling, interesting, entertaining, make sense. Whether anyone's going to go see it or not, I don't think anyone ever knows or has ever known.
DAVIES: Well, Robert Zemeckis, it's been fun. Thanks so much for speaking with us.
ZEMECKIS: I appreciate it. Thank you very much.
GROSS: Robert Zemeckis spoke with FRESH AIR contributor Dave Davies. Zemeckis directed the new film "Flight," starring Denzel Washington. Coming up, rock historian Ed Ward reviews a new box set tracing the history of electric blues. This is FRESH AIR. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright National Public Radio.